Reply: Col 1:20 says that Jesus will "reconcile all things unto himself." Will he also reconcile Satan unto himself? No! That is because there are exceptions to the word ALL/PAS/PANTA.
Why doesn't the Greek text uses ALLOS or hETEROS here? Because "other" is a legitimate part of PAS/PANTA.
In fact, had you bothered to investigate the additions of "other" in the RSV, KJV etc., you would have seen that it most often followed PAS/PANTA, just like it does in the NWT. [The New Living Translation adds the word "else" in verse 17, "He existed before everything else began"] In fact, I have gone so far as to check every occurence of ALLOS and hETEROS in the Greek text, and I could not find any occurence of these words alongside PAS/PANTA. Obviously, it was not common to do so, showing again, the superiority of the NWT. As we can see, the linguistic reason here is strengthened by the fact that Jesus here (verse 15) is the firstborn, a part of creation.
I got these questions on facebook in regards to this (with some language barrier problems):
Questioner: You only used verse 20 referring to Satan ! Now one needs to find out if by inserting other 5 times whether it does affect the context ! Par you does it or does it not change the context ! And just to make sure is it your belief then that Jesus is a god?
Reply: I have a hard time understanding what it is you are writing here. The context indicates that he is a part of creation so inserting "other" does not affect the context. You don't even need to insert "other" and just translate as the Good News Bible does: "For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him."
Questioner: The context does not indicate that Jesus is part of creation , but that creation exist because of him! That is why I ask of you , do you belief Jesus is a god ! biblehub.com/1-16.htm says all things are through him and FOR HIM! If you defend the JW version then you are defending that ALL l THINGS were made FOR a god !! but over and over the Bible says ALL THINGS are FOR God .!!
Reply: The partitive genitive construction demands that Jesus is part of creation. To further answer we can go to Prov 8:22, 30: "The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old....then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always," RSV
Now you understand why the Bible says: "all things are through him and FOR HIM!" If I create something FOR someone, then I am a different person than the one I am creating FOR. If I do anything THROUGH someone, then that someone is merely an agent. Don't get hung up on the words "a god" because in bible times that word was used more loosely as it does today.
Questioner: Proverbs *8 in the context of the chapter is not even about Jesus Heinz ! You like many others are reading Jesus into the chapter !! The NWT is in my opinion designed for the sole purpose to promote JW dogma ! One only need to start in the first chaptet in Gen 1: 2 to see that !!
Reply: Prov 8 IS about Jesus.
Check out the cross-references of the following Bibles, as they point between Wisdom and the Logos (Jesus).
New American Bible: John 1:1-> Prov 8:22-25
John 1:3, Punctuation and Staircase Parallelism
New Scofield Study Bible/KJV: Prov 8:22-> John 1:1; Prov 8:30->John 1:1, 2
Nelson Study Bible/NKJV: Prov 8:30->John 1:1-3, 18
Oxford Annotated Bible/RSV: John 1:3->Prov 8:27-30; Prov 8:22-31->John 1:1-3
NIV Study Bible: Prov 8:22-31->John 1:1-3
MacArthur Study Bible/NKJV: Prov 8:22-31->John 1:1-3
Zondervan NASB Study Bible: Prov 8:22-31->John 1:1-3
New American Standard Bible Reference Edition: Prov 8:30->John 1:2,3
Geneva Study Bible: Prov 8:22-John 1:1
Matthew Henry: John 1-5->Prov 8:22
John Wesley: John 1:1-> Prov 8:23
Harper Collins Study Bible/NRSV: John 1:1->Prov 8:22
Ryrie Study Bible/NIV: John 1:1->Prov 8
New Jerusalem Bible: John 1:1->Wisdom; Prov 8:22, 23-> John 1:1-3
Vine's Expository Reference Bible/NKJV: Prov 8:30->John 1:1-3
Prophecy Study Bible/KJV by Tim LaHaye: Prov 8:22->John 1:1; Prov 8:30->John 1:1-3
NIV Rainbow Study Bible: Prov 8:30->John 1:1-3
Men's Study Bible/NIV: Prov 8:30->John 1:1-3
Nestle-Aland 27th Edition: John 1:1->Prov 8:22; Prov 8:22->John 1:1,2
Oxford Study Bible/REB: Prov 8:22->John 1:1-3; John 1:1-18->Wisd. 9:1-4:8; Ecclus 24:1-12
Even Jesus acknowledges that he is this Wisdom:
"Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send unto them prophets and apostles; and some of them they shall kill and persecute; that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation" Luke 11:49 ASV
Questioner: You: Context shows that Jesus is not a part of creation such as one that was created . but rather as one through whom and FOR whom creation was made !
Reply: I have already responded to this, and you are just ignoring it. If you are not going to read or respond to my replies, the please stop interacting with me.
Questioner: The NWT is in my opinion designed for the sole purpose to promote JW dogma ! One only need to start in the first chaptet in Gen 1: 2 to see that !!
Reply: "a mighty wind swept over the waters." New American Bible, New English Bible.
"a divine wind sweeping over the waters." New Jerusalem Bible
"and the power of God was moving over the water." Good News Bible-TEV etc etc etc
Questioner: Henz just cause you used two translation ,which dont even use active force does not justify the NWT rendering ! I dont have a problem with wind ,breath etc !Can you show us a Hebrew Lexicon that gives RUACH as active force!
Reply: Wind and breath are active forces.
“In the OT, Heb. Ruah means first of all wind and breath, but also the human spirit in the sense of life force and even personal energy.” Eerdman’s Dictionary of the Bible (see also Brown Driver
Brigg’s Lexicon)
"Spirit is the principle of life and vital activity. The spirit is the breath of life (Gn 6:17; 7:15, 22; BS 38:23; WS 15:11, 16; 16:14). The breath is the breath of God, the wind, communicated to
man by divine inspiration....The spirit of Yahweh or the spirit of God (Elohim) is a **force** that has unique effects upon man...and the spirit of Yahweh is a **force** which operates the works of Yahweh the savior and the judge. The spirit of Yahweh is often the **force** which inspires prophecy (Nm 11:17
ff; 24:2; 2 S 23:2; 1 Ch 12:18; Is 61:1; Mi 3:8; Ezk 2:2; 3:12, 14, 24; 8:3; 11:1, 5, 24; 37:1; 43:5; Ne 9:30; Zc 7:12 Dictionary of the Bible by John L. McKenzie, S.J.
“wind, air in motion…breath…an influential principle, a pervading influence…” Perschbacher’s The New Analytical Greek Lexicon
“a movement of air, blast…God’s power and agency.” Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
Questioner: Heinz you keep insisting that God made all things for a god . which is a creature that is part of creation ~In WT dogma by inserting other , it changes everything ! You as we can are avoiding the crucial points, namely that WT dogma is that God made a god first and the all other things were made through and for this god! Is it your belief that all things or all other things were made for a god ?
Reply: I have never insisted that here! You keep insisting that. In the Bible and in the language of the time, creatures such as men and angels were often referred to as gods. Words change meanings and importance over time.
Another questioner copied and pasted a very long post, but I will just highlight the most pertinent part: if Paul had believed that Jesus was the first of God's creatures to be formed, the adj. [protoktistos] ("created first") or [protoplastos] ("formed first") might have been expected
Reply: It should be noted that these words were not in common use back in the first century, and would not be for a 100 to 200 years after Christ. Interestingly though, when protoktizo was eventually used, it was used of Christ. John Patrick, in his Clement of Alexandria notes: "Clement repeatedly identifies the Word with the Wisdom of God, and yet refers to Wisdom as the first-created of God; while in one passage he attaches the epithet "First-created," and in another "First-begotten," to the Word." p.103,104, note 6.
When PROTOTOKOS is used with the genitive OF, like "the firstborn of" it is used as part of a group.
AGAIN, everytime the phrase, "the firstborn of" is used, it is used as part of a group. If it is "the firstborn of" Israel (Ex. 6:14), it is one of the sons of Israel, if it is "the firstborn of" Pharoah (Ex. 11:5) it is a member of the house of Pharoah, if it is "the firstborn of" beasts(Ex. 13:15) then it is an animal also. Why then should this rule be changed as it applies to "the firstborn of" creation?
It is the Bible that calls Jesus "the firstborn of all creation," "the beginning of God's creation," the "only-begotten Son" and links Jesus to the "created" Wisdom of Proverbs (Col 1:15; Rev 3:14; Jn 3:16; Prov 8:22-30 cf. Lu 11:47/1Cor 1:24 RSV).
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