Monday, January 22, 2018

Was Jesus Worshipped as a God? by Winthrop Bailey 1822


Was Jesus Worshipped as God? by Winthrop Bailey 1822

While Christ was on earth, many, who came to request favours of him, are said to have worshipped him. This circumstance has been considered a decisive proof, that he was God, in as much as he accepted this worship. It would be easy to show, that the original word is used to denote, not only religious worship, but that homage or respect, which men pay to their superiors. I shall mention a few of the many examples, which might be produced to confirm this latter sense of the term. “And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself to (worshipped) the people of the land.’ (Gen. xxiii. 7. 12. “And Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and did obeisance’—(worshipped him.) (Ex. xviii. 7.) “Judah, thy father's children shall bow down before thee'-(worship thee.) (Gen. xlix. 8.) “A man came out of the camp from Saul, and when he came to David, he fell to the earth, and did obeisance’—(worshipped him.) (II. Sam. i. 2.) “And all the king's servants, that were in the king's gates, bowed and reverenced (worshipped) Haman.” (Est. iii. 2.). Those, who are not acquainted with the original, may see, by these examples, the weakness of the argument above alluded to, in favour of the supreme divinity of Christ. It is an argument only in sound. It results entirely from the want of uniformity in the translation of the word in question. No one supposes, that David or Haman, or the others, mentioned in the preceding quotations, were regarded as objects of religious worship. And there is as little reason to suppose, that those, who came to Christ, and worshipped him, or rather did him homage, or obeisance, regarded him as an object of religious veneration, or could justly be charged with idolatry, if he were not the supreme God. It was as proper for him to receive this worship, homage, or respect; as it was for David to receive the same. When therefore, we are told, that Christ was worshipped while on earth; it is sufficient to reply, that, in the strict and proper sense of the term, he was not worshipped. In reference to this term, Dr. Campbell has the following note. ‘The homage of prostration, which is signified by this Greek word, in sacred authors, and well as in profane, was throughout all Asia, commonly paid to kings and other superiors, both by Jews and by Pagans. It was paid by Moses to his father-in-law, called in the English translation obeisance. The instances of this application are so numerous, both in the Old Testament, and in the New, as to render more quotations unnecessary.” [Campbell's Note on Matth. ii. 2, See also Schleus, in voc. PROSKUNEO.]

The foregoing remarks on the import of the word, rendered worship, furnish a sufficient explanation of the following passage, (Heb. i. 6.) which is often quoted to prove the supreme deity of Jesus Christ. 'And let all the angels of God worship him.’ According to what has been already said, this clause can only prove, that the angels, whether human or celestial messengers, were to regard ‘the first begotten,' as their superior; and to pay him the customary homage due to such. To this interpretation we are also led by the connexion of the words; as it seems to be the principal design of the writer in this chapter to show the superiority of the Son to the angels. But would it not be as singular, as it is needless, for any writer to enter into a formal proof of the preeminence of the eternal God over his creatures through the whole passage, God and the Son are represented as two distinct beings, as plainly as language can convey this idea. Besides, the clause in question, contains no intimation, that the angels were to worship Christ as the supreme God. Would it be consistent with reason or scripture, to suppose that God is ‘the first begotten?'— By comparing the clause under discussion, as the apostle has applied it, with the ninety-seventh Psalm, from which it is quoted, some have inferred, that Christ is the Lord, or Jehovah there spoken of. But this is far from being a conclusive mode of reasoning. Passages, which in the Old Testament relate to particular individuals, or objects, are sometimes applied to others by the writers of the New. Thus the words in the preceding verse of this chapter, “I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son,” related originally to Solomon. They were however equally true respecting Christ, to whom the apostle applies them. To prove that those, who preach the gospel, are justly entitled to be supported by those, who have the benefit of their labours, St. Paul quoted the following words;– Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox, that treadeth out the corn.” That this was their original design or application, no one will suppose. To the return of Christ from Egypt, St. Matthew applies a passage, which referred to the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt by Moses. (Matth. ii. 15. Hosea xi. 1.) In the prophet, the passage is: 'When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.' The words of the apostle are: ‘That it might be fulfilled, which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.' Notwithstanding this, it is evident, that the ‘son’ mentioned by the apostle, is not the same with the ‘son’ mentioned by the prophet. These examples show, that, when the apostle said “Let all the angels of God worship him; he did not necessarily refer to the same Being, of whom the Psalmist spake, when he said, ‘Worship him all ye gods.’ The Psalm seems to relate to the introduction of the gospel, or to the period, when the kingdom or reign of heaven was to be established; and as God was then to 'set his King upon his holy hill of Zion,’ a command to worship God necessarily included a command to do homage to his Son; or to honour him in that high station, to which he was exalted. To say, therefore, ‘Worship Jehovah, all ye gods,” was in effect to say; ‘Worship the Son, all ye messengers of God.” As Saul of Tarsus persecuted Jesus, when he persecuted the disciples; so the angels or gods honoured Jehovah, when they honoured his Son. (Acts ix. 1. 5.)

There are several passages in the Revelation, which are supposed to prove, that Christ is worshipped as the Supreme God. St. John heard “every creature, which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him, that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever, and ever.” Here we are told, that the Lamb is united with him that sitteth upon the throne, as an object of worship; and that the same ascription of praise belongs to both. But is not the Lamb represented as a distinct being from him, who sitteth on the throne;— and is it not evident, that the latter is supreme In a preceding verse, the reason for this ascription to the Lamb seems to be suggested. “Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood.” (Rev. v. 9.) If this were the reason of his being worthy to take the book, and to open the seals; it does not appear probable, that a higher reason existed for his receiving the other honour. Nothing conclusive can be inferred from the application of the same language to God, and to the Lamb. This circumstance does not prove their equality. We find the same language, which is applied to Christ, applied also to his disciples. Of him who is ‘called, the Word of God,' it is said, that ‘he shall rule the nations with a rod of iron.' (Rev. xix. 15.) ‘To him that overcometh,' said Christ, 'will I give power over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron.' (ii. 26, 27.) Why may we not as well infer, that their power is equal to his; as, in the other case, that his honour is equal to that of God? Is Christ represented as receiving blessing, honour, and glory, with God? So are saints represented as living and reigning with Christ; as sitting on the throne with him, as he sits on the throne with the Father. If there be no equality in the one instance, I see not, that there is in the other.

The circumstance that both are mentioned in the same connexion, is no evidence that both are equally worshipped. This is confirmed by the following examples. “And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord and the king.” (I. Chron. xxix. 20.) Here Jehovah and David are connected as objects of worship, in the same way, as God and the Lamb are connected in the passages under consideration. Had these words been found in the New Testament, with the name Christ instead of the king, it is needless to say, how they would be applied by Trinitarians.— We should have been told of the inconsistency, nay the idolatry, of uniting a creature with the Creator, in the same act of worship. The passage now shows, how we are to estimate this kind of argument. It proceeds on a wrong supposition; viz. that both of the persons, mentioned, must be equally objects of worship.– When the congregation worshipped Jehovah and David, they doubtless worshipped each according to his character; the first, as God, the second, as king of Israel. Both were worthy of honour; but in unequal degrees. So, when blessing, honour, &c. are ascribed to him that sitteth on the throne, and to the Lamb; the nature of the case, and the description, given of the two, show, as in the other instance, that only one of them is worshipped as the supreme God. The language here no more proves the Lamb to be equal, or equally worshipped, with him, who sitteth on the throne; than, in the other case, it proves David to be equal, or equally worshipped, with the Lord. Our Saviour said, ‘Whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.” (Luke ix. 26.) Had the last clause been;– when he shall come in his own glory and of the Father, and of the holy Spirit;’—we should probably have been told, that the glory of the three is the same, and therefore that the three must be equal; and, further, that it is inconsistent to mention the glory of a creature in connexion with that of the supreme God. The passage however entirely refutes this mode of reasoning; and shows, from the very best authority, that the glory of creatures may be mentioned in the same connexion with that of the Creator, without any design of representing them to be equal. St. Paul said, (I. Tim. v. 21.) “I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels.” Had this passage been read;–'I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the holy Spirit; it would doubtless have been regarded as a proof of the Trinity; on the ground, that, in the most solemn charge, which can be given to man, a created being could not consistently be united with the supreme God. Perhaps it would have been considered an act of worship to the three persons in the divine nature; and as an instance of the equal glory, which they receive. Of ‘him that overcometh, Christ said, ‘I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, and my new name.' (Rev. iii. 12.) Though this is never thought to prove the supreme divinity of ‘him that overcometh; yet, the angel, who is supposed to be Christ, is thought by many to possess essential deity, because God said, 'My name is in him.’ (Ex. xxiii. 21.) Why is an inference drawn in the latter case, which, as every one knows, cannot be drawn in the other?

It is often intimated, that, if Christ be not, in the highest sense, God, the honour, which the scriptures require us to ascribe to him is inconsistent with the worship, which is due to God alone. But, after what has been already said, it is sufficient to reply, that the scriptures do not require us to honour or worship him, as the supreme God; and that it is undoubtedly right to honour him and others, according to the characters, which they sustain. To do this in obedience to the command of God, is far from dishonouring him. Christ, whom we are required to own, and to revere, as the one Lord, and the one Mediator, instead of being the ultimate object of worship, is himself a worshipper of the Father; and in this respect is like all other created beings. It will not be doubted, that, while he was on earth, he was in the habit of worshipping his Father and his God. Nor can we well suppose, that his relation to the great Father of all was changed, when he was received to heaven; when ‘God highly exalted him, and gave him a name, which is above every' other, given to creatures. The honour, which he has received, is not inconsistent with his adoring and worshipping the great Supreme. 'All things' are indeed put 'under his feet.' But the period is approaching, when he will 'deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father.’ ‘Then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him, that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”


Sunday, January 21, 2018

On the First and the Last in Revelations


Question: Let's move along to Rev l:4 it speaks of the one who is, and who was and who is coming.  Now read verse 8.  I am the Alpha and the Omega says Jehovah God "the one who is and who was and who is coming the Almighty."  Now back up to verse 7 and it says he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him.
Who pierced the Almighty?  In verse 17,18 reads I am the first and the last, verse l8 and the living one, and I became dead.  So this is Jesus.  Could this explain the one "who was" in verse 8?  So let's get this straight Jehovah is the Alpha & Omega (I know you know what that means), and Jesus is the First and last in ver 17,18.
Who is speaking in Rev 22:14?
You know now that I'm thinking about it you have two of everything else you might as well have two first and last!!

Reply: Well, let us take a closer look at this.
In verse 4, we have John talking, until verse 7, which ends with "Amen."
Verse 7 refers to Jesus, and it ends with "Amen."
Verse 8 we have the Lord God talking, but then, in verse 9, it starts off with John talking again.
To confuse things even further, all this was sent via an angel. (Rev 1:1).
Jesus is "the first and the last" with reference to his death and resurrection."
All references to Jesus as being the "first and the last" have this limitation. Let us take a look?  "I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead" Rev 1:17,18 (Actually, one of the oldest manuscripts that we have (A) has the word "firstborn" here.
"These things saith the first and the last, who was dead, and lived [again]" Rev. 2:8
"Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead" Rev 1:5 See also Romans 14:9 and Col 1:18.

Question: Just a few more questions.  In verse 3 it reads, "But the throne of God (Jehovah), and of the lamb (Jesus) will be in the city and his slaves will render him sacred service.  Ver 4 and they will see his face.
Should this have read their throne, and see their faces?  According to previous passages both are coming (ver 12,13 & Jesus in ver 20)  According to Matt 25:31 the son of man arrives in his glory (Isaiah 42:9) and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.  Now back in Rev. 22:3 it reads, "the throne of God"
Do we now have two thrones?So back to Rev 22:3,4
Who is on the throne?  Now verse 4 and they will see his face, and his name (singular)  will be on their foreheads.  Well guess what?  Read Rev l4:l now you've got two names on one forehead!!!  Unless......they are the same God.

Reply: Rev 22:3 actually mentions THREE different parties, God, the Lamb, and the servants. When the name is mentioned, we can exclude the other 2. as it is definitely the Lord God that is the referent (see verse 5), which is a term (i.e. Lord God) never used of Christ (the Lamb) or his slaves (servants).
Do we have 2 thrones? Yes we do. Remember that the Jewish kings sat on Jehovah's throne (1 Chron 29:23) and that Jesus would be at God's right hand, "thus he is made second in authority to God himself." Footnote at Ps 110:1 NIV Study Bible
Jesus gets his glory from the Father (John 1:14), and we share in that glory (John 17:22), but are to acknowledge that "Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Everything eventually comes back to the Father.

Remember too that Jesus, God's agent, his hands the kingdom BACK to God the Father (1 Cor 15:24) so in this way, we can speak of both of them as coming.

Jesus, as agent, represents God in such a way that he hold a functional equality with him.

"The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself. Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle."
The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, R.J.Z. Werblowski and Geoffrey Wigoder

Question? Why is it that the person of the holy spirit is never pictured in the visions of heaven?

Question: One last question
Did you know that Jesus and Jehovah have their own individual angel Rev 22:6,l6?

Reply: So does Satan (Rev 12:9) and Michael (Rev 12:7). Angel simply means "messenger."
Why does the person of the holy spirit not have any of his own individual angels?

Wednesday, January 10, 2018

Revisiting Monogenes and "Only-begotten."


In response online to the usual downplaying of monogenes theos (MONOGENHS QEOS, traditionally "only-begotten") as relating to birth and generation, I posted:

 In the N.T., monogenes is used in a filial way, one that is used for offspring...see Thayers Greek Lexicon & BAGD. In fact the BAGD states that it could be analogous to prototokos (firstborn). In view of this, John V. Dahms in his The Johannine Use Of Monogenes Reconsidered NTS 29, 1983, p.231 states: We have examined all of the evidence which has come to our attention concerning the meaning of monogenes in the Johannine writings and have found the majority view of modern scholarship has very little to support it. On the other hand, the external evidence, especially that from Philo, Justin and Tertullian, and the internal evidence from the context of its occurrences, makes clear that 'only begotten' is the most accurate translation after all."

I got this reply: it's interesting that you would quote from John V. Dahms who has been opposed in numerous books from theologians and scholars alike. The fact that Dahms has a theological bias against the Trinity is seen in the propagation of the idea that the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father. In other words, there was no choice in submission. The Father is superior, which causes the Son to be inferior. This is hardly the truth with the Trinity. The Son willingly submits to the Father. There's an order to the Godhead and all three are equal. So naturally because of this theological bias of eternal subordination, Dahms would expound on "monogenes" as being properly interpreted as "only begotten." The majority of scholars disagree with his ideas, since this idea of eternal submission was first propagated by the heretic Arius.

My reply: So your opposition to Dahm's is not his thesis, but that the people you like don't like him. Is there something in his thesis that you could isolate for criticism? I also reject your "The majority of scholars disagree with his ideas" since you have never queried all Greek scholars in existence. (And frankly, what do I care about Dahms' religious views when it is his ideas we should be looking at. It is like saying I shouldn't read a book about Obama if the author is critical of him.)

Question: How do you view this as happening? If the verb means "beget", do they think God has a wife? Do they think God has a womb?

Reply: Abraham did beget Isaac. Does Abraham have a womb? (Yes, Abraham had a wife, but the Bible does not say that Sarah Begat Isaac.)

Question: In Hebrews 11:17 Isaac is called Abraham's "only begotten son" too. But certainly Abraham had more than one son. Something more must being going on here.

Reply:  In Heb 11:17 it is still a filial relationship. There was a time when Isaac was not, and according to Philo he had "begotten no son in the truest sense but Isaac." The Targum (Pseudo-Jonathan) mentions that Isaac is the son of Abraham's wife while the other is the son of the hand-maid, and "the son of the handmaid shall not be genealogized."

........................

Addendum: There are about 58 proper names in Greek built on the "genes" stem, like Diogenes, which means "born of Zeus" or Hermogenes ("born of Hermes). These are names given by parents to their offspring that represents birth. (See https://www.behindthename.com/names/usage/ancient-greek) There are also words like theogenes which means "born of God." Though there are exceptions, "the word monogenes is used most basically and frequently in contexts having to do with biological offspring." Charles Lee Irons (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary)

Friday, January 5, 2018

Answering Questions on the NWT, the word "Worship" and "Lord"


Question: In the New International Dictionary of the Bible (Editor J.D. Douglas & Merrill C Tenney) page 1070 under "worship" says to prostrate, do obeisance  In your (69 & 85) Kit when translating the word "worship" is translated "did obeisance" every time for Jesus, and the exact same word says worship toward Jehovah.
What happened to the word for word translation promise in the foreword of both books?
The fact is Jesus was worshipped as God many times according to the Gospel accounts, and he always accepted such worship as appropriate.
Jesus accepted worship from Thomas (John 20:28), the angels (Hebrews l:6)  the wise men (Matt 2:ll), a leper (Matt 8:2, a ruler (Matt 9:18), a blind man (John 9:38), an anonymous woman (Matt 15:25; Mary Magdalene (Matt 28:9, and his diciples (Matt 28:l7)  In the book of Rev, God the Father (4:l0) and Jesus Christ (5:ll-l4) are clearly portrayed as receiving the exact same worship.
Hebrew l:6 Jehovah said let all God's angels do obeisance to him (Now we know what that means)  And in Luke 4:8 Jesus said, "It is Jehovah your God you must worship and it is him alone you must render sacred service.
How do you explain this?
Now let's read Rom 14:11 Jehovah says "to me every knee will bend down and every tongue will make open knowledgement to God.  I think both of us will agree this is worship.  So let's read Phil. 2:10,ll.  Imagine that!!  It says the exact same thing about Jesus.
Your comments please.


Reply: Have you ever really bothered to check out the meanings of these words. We will start of the with the Hebrew equivalent, Shachah. Ex 34:14 says, " for thou shalt worship (shachah) no other god: for Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" ASV
However, this same word for worship, shachah [proskuneo, LXX], was also often used of mere men of honor (see Gen 23:7, 12; 33:3; 43:28; 1 Sam 24:8; Ruth 2:10; 1 Kings 1:31; 2 Kings 4:37; Esther 3:2, 5 etc.), and angels (Jos 5:14; Num 22:31; Gen 18:2; 19:1).
In the Greek, according to W.E. Vine's Expository Dictionary, PROSKUNEO means "to make obeisance, do reverence to...It is used of an act of homage or reverence to God (John 4:24)...to Christ (Matt 2:2)...to a man (Matt 18:26)...to the Dragon (Re. 13:4)...to the Beast (Rev 13:8)...the image of the Beast (Rev 14:11)...to demons (Rev 9:20)...to idols (Acts 7:43)."
Remember, the LXX uses this word when it comes to shachah. It simply means that the word does not hold the same connotations as it does today.
"Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel" Dan 2:46 KJV, RV, ASV
"And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king." 1Chron 29:20 KJV, ASV
Here, king David is given the same worship as Jehovah.
Even the American Standard Version mentions at Matt. 2:2, "The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man (see chap. Matt. 18:26) or to God (see chap. Matt. 4:10)'" ?
So it is necessary for Bible versions to make a distinction, as they all do (see Matt 18:26).
Is the Kingdom Interlinear Translation discriminatory in its inconsistency. I checked this with other interlinears that I own. My NKJV/Majority Text has "obeisance" at Matt 18:26, but "worship" at Heb 1:6. My Marshall/Nestle Interlinear has the same thing in the same places. It appears that they, like the translators of the KIT gave "as literal a translation as possible" and "as nearly as possible word for word" renderings. (see forward KIT).
See also NEB, Young, Byington, NJB, Goodspeed, Newcome, REB, 20th Cent, Schonfield, Confraternity, Douay and Kleist&Lilly etc


Question: Also in Ephesians 4:5 it reads one Lord.  In Isaiah l0:33 Jehovah is the {true} Lord.  But in Luke 2:ll reads Jesus is {the} Lord. 16.  If there are two Lords why didn't they say "A" Lord in Luke 2:ll?  Ver 6 reads "one God", you have two.

Reply: No one here has 2 gods based on your meaning of "god", as those of my ilk are one of the few that actually recognize the Biblical use of the word "God."
Luke 2:11 OTI ETECQH UMIN SHMERON SWTHR OS ESTIN CRISTOS KURIOS EN POLEI DAUID
As you can see, there is actually no article here in the Greek by Lord (KURIOS), it is supplied by the translators of Bible versions (you will notice that the article "the" is often supplied in brackets).
As far as the OT goes, the scripture that is definitely applied to Christ (Psalm 110:1) uses the word adoni, a form of the word that is never used of YHWH, but only humans and angels.

As for the word Lord in the Greek, it is used (a) of an owner, as in Luke 19:33, cp. Matt. 20:8; Acts 16:16; Gal. 4:1; or of one who has the disposal of anything, as the Sabbath, Matt. 12:8; (b) of a master, i.e., one to whom service is due on any ground, Matt. 6:24; 24:50; Eph. 6:5; (c) of an Emperor or King, Acts 25:26; Rev. 17:14; (d) of idols, ironically, 1 Cor. 8:5, cp. Isa. 26:13; (e) as a title of respect addressed to a father, Matt. 21:30, a husband, 1 Pet. 3:6, a master, Matt. 13:27; Luke 13:8, a ruler, Matt. 27:63, an angel, Acts 10:4; Rev. 7:14; (f) and as a title of courtesy addressed to a stranger, John 12:21; 20:15; Acts 16:30.

The Bible has many references to a "lord and king" that refer to human kings. (See 1 Sam 24:8; 26:15, 17, 19; 29:8; 2 Sam. 2:7; 3:21; 4:8; 9:11; 13:33; 14:9 etc). And why not, as they sit on Jehovah's throne (1 Chron 29:23). Like Jesus, they were GIVEN authority.

But isn't the term used for both the Father and the Son?
Consider the following verses:
Rom. 15:6
"you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

2 Cor. 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

2 Cor. 11:31
"The God and Father of our Lord Jesus"

Eph. 1:3
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Eph. 1:17
"...the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

1 Pet. 1:3
"...the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

These verses present a few problems:
God the Father is Lord. But when one Lord is the God of another who is also Lord, then they are not the same, or even equal.
If Jesus is subordinate to God only as to his "human nature," then this contradicts the above verses, for there Jesus, in his divine state, has someone who is God to him.

Question: Also it reads "One Father", Jesus is all eternal Father and Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6.  And in Isaiah l0:21 Jehovah is called a "Mighty God".  Imagine that!! They both are God, Lord, Father,  when Paul said there is only one.   In latter part of verse 6 reads "who is over all and through all and in all"  But if you read Matt 28:18 Jesus said "All" authority (not half) has been given me in Heaven and on the Earth.  Either you have one of each or you have a lot of contradictions.
Your comments please.


Reply: And you forget the optimum word here. It is the word GIVEN. Almighty God does not need to be GIVEN anything. By handing over all authority to Christ, he, as Michael, can oust Satan from the heavens (Rev 12:7-12).
"And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night."
But he eventually hands it back to God, who is excepted from the word "ALL."
1 Cor 15:24-28 says, "Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father; after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For God has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when it says, All things are put in subjection under him, it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things unto him, that God may be everything to everyone." RSV

As for Isaiah 9:6, read how it is used in other Bibles:

"Wonder-Counsellor, Divine Champion, Father Ever, Captain of Peace." Byington
"A wonder of a counsellor, a divine hero, a father for all time, a peaceful prince." Moffatt
"in purpose wonderful, in battle God-like...." New English Bible
"Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty Hero, Eternal Father...."Revised English Bible
"great leader, time's father"...Fenton

Why, because this verse has an earlier reference to a human king, like King Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz; or to Hezekiah initially and Christ finally. Note what some from former years have said regarding this account:

"Hezekiah, who was very unlike his father Ahaz. This passage is acknowledged, not only by Christians, but by the Chaldee interpreter, to relate in the same manner, but in a more excellent sense, to the Messiah––(Annotationes ad vetus et Novum Testamentum, by Hugo Grotius, a Dutch Arminian, 1583-1645).

"In several places of his Expositions and Sermons, he [LUTHER] maintains that the epithets belong, not to the person of Christ, but to his work and office. He understands [ale; Strongs 410] in the sense of power or ability, citing for his authority Deut. Xxviii. 32, where, as in about four other places, the expression occurs of an action's being or not being "in the power of the hand,"––(Scripture Testimony to the Messiah, Third ed. Lond. 1837, 3 vol., by Dr. J.P. Smith [it should fairly be noted that Dr. Smith disapproves of Luther's rendering])

"The word la [ale] here used is applicable, not only to God, but to angels and men worthy of admiration. Whence it does not appear, that the Deity of Christ can be effectually gathered from this passage."––(apud Sandium, p. 118, SASBOUT [as quoted in Concession, by Wilson])

"The words of Isaiah, Deus fortis, "strong God," have been differently interpreted. It is evident, that the term God is in Hebrew applied figuratively to those who excel – to angels, heroes, and magistrates; and some render it here, not God, but brave or hero."––(apud Sandium, p. 118, Esromus Rudingerus [as quoted in Concessions, by Wilson])

"It is evident that la [ale] properly denotes strong, powerful, and is used in Ezek. Xxxi. 11, of king Nebuchadnezzar, who is called... "the mighty one of the heathen."––(Scholia in Vetus Testamentum. Lips. 1828-36, 6 vol, E.F.C. Rosenmuller [Prof. of the Arabic Language at Leipzig; d. 1836])

...and, do you really think both of them are the Father, as you have stated above? If you do, then you are a Sabellianist, not a trinitarian.

Question: While you are in the 28 Chapter read verse 9, then turn to Acts 2:38 and read.
Why didn't it say Jehovah?
There is something else that bothers me, that Rom l0:13.  Now read Acts 4:10-12, If both names are equally important 19.  Why are they not listed together?  Unless he is the same.-given name
Please comment.


Reply: Because Jesus was GIVEN a better name. "Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name." Php 2:9
Almighty God does not need to be exalted, he does not need to be given a name above all others.
You see, in the past, you can do things in a prophet's name (1 Ki 21:8) or in a king's name (1 Sa 25:9), but unlike these, including the angels, "he hath inherited a more excellent name than they." Heb 1:4
Jn 17:2 just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him. NAB
Jn 17:11 And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are. NAB
We don't need to know that Almighty God is better than the angels, for that is already understood. Almighty God does not need to inherit anything, for that is understood. 

Wednesday, January 3, 2018

Answering Questions on Colossians 1 & John 8:58 and the New World Translation Bible


Question: Let's begin.  In reference to Col l:15-17 your answer was all bibles insert the word "other" where translators feel it is needed.  The KJV does it 67 times, the RSV 100 times, etc.  Well this is true, but they do not use it in this passage.  Now here is the first question.
 Why is the word "other" inserted in this passage.  Again there are two words Paul could have used if he wanted to show that Jesus was another.  First is Allos which means another of the same kind (#243 Strongs Con)  Next is Heteres means another of a different kind (#2087-2088)  By using brackets NWT acknowledges that it is not in Greek.  There is no linguistic reason at all to insert this word here four times.... unless you are trying to support the presupposition that Jesus is not God.

Reply: Col 1:20 says  that Jesus will "reconcile all things unto himself." Will he also reconcile Satan unto himself? No! That is because there are exceptions to the word ALL/PAS/PANTA.
Why doesn't the Greek text uses ALLOS or hETEROS here? Because "other" is a legitimate part of PAS/PANTA.

In fact, had you bothered to investigate  the additions of "other" in the RSV, KJV etc., you would have seen that it most often followed PAS/PANTA, just like it does in the NWT. [The New Living Translation adds the word "else" in verse 17, "He existed before everything else began"] In fact, I have gone so far as to check every occurence of ALLOS and hETEROS in the Greek text, and I could not find any occurence of these words alongside PAS/PANTA. Obviously, it was not common to do so, showing again, the superiority of the NWT.
As we can see, the linguistic reason here is strengthened by the fact that Jesus here (verse 15) is the firstborn, a part of creation.

Question: Why do you interpret the word "first born" to mean first created.  This is not correct because there is a Greek word for "First Created" and it was not used.  The Greek for firstborn is proto with tikto:  Firstborn.  The Greek for first created would be proto with ktizo:  first created.  Paul did not use the second but the first. (3)  Your comments please.

Reply: Again, you are falling into the trap you did with ALLOS and hETEROS. Protoktizo was not in common use back in the first century, and would not be for a 100 to 200 years after Christ. Interestingly though, when this word was eventually used, it was used of Christ. John Patrick, in his Clement of Alexandria notes:

    "Clement repeatedly identifies the Word with the Wisdom of God, and yet refers to Wisdom as the first-created of God; while in one passage he attaches the epithet "First-created," and in another "First-begotten," to the Word." p.103,104, note 6.

The Philosophy of the Church Fathers, Volume 1 Faith, Trinity, Incarnation, by Harry Austryn Wolfson, 2nd Edition, Revised:

    "Zahn casually remarks that Clement 'always makes a sharp distinction between the only uncreated God the Father and the Son or Logos who was begotten or created before the rest of creation.'...1. cf. Th. Zahn, "Supplementum Clementinium", (1884), 144, p. 204, 92
    "It is undoubtably with reference to this "coming forth" of the Logos prior to the creation of the world that Clement speaks of the Logos as "firstborn" [protogonos] and of wisdom, which he idtentified with the Logos, as the "first-created" [protoktistos]...30 Strom. VI, Ibid. V. 14., ibid. p 209

The prototokos in Col 1:15 is a partitive genitive. Let us look at the Greek here, "hos estin eikOn tou theou tou aoratou, prOtotokos [firstborn]  pasEs [of all] ktiseOs [creation]"
All the words in red are genitives, but the ones we are interested in are the ones following prOtotokos. This means "firstborn" is in the genitive construction, hence we have the translation, "firstborn of." When checking this with other uses in the LXX (Septuagint), the outcome is devastating for Trinitarians, as "firstborn of" always indicates that the referent is part of the class or group it is joined to.
For example: LXX Genesis 4:4 And Abel also brought of the first born of his sheep
(This makes the firstborn a member, or part, of the sheep)
LXX Exodus 11:5 And every first-born in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first-born of Pharao that sits on the throne, even to the first-born of the woman-servant that is by the mill, and to the first-born of all cattle.
(The firstborn of Pharoah is of the house of Pharoah, the firstborn of cattle was one of the cows, etc).
There are no exceptions to this. Jesus, as the firstborn of creation, is a member of creation, he is a created being.
When the NIV translates Col 1:15 as "the firstborn over all creation," it is actually being dishonest and biased.

Question:     Next in reference to John 8:58 in the 1969 Kit the footnote reads, "This is not the Being, or the "I Am" at Exodus 3:14.  Also in the 1985 Kit appendix 2F, page 1145 it reads, "Attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah some say that "E-GOEI-MI is the equivalent of the Hebrew expression "I Am" which is used by God.
Where is the NWT is the Hebrew expression "I Am" that was used by God?  And if it is in Exodus 3:14
Why was it changed to I shall prove to Be?  If Jesus was not using the divine name used by God in Exodus 3:14 KJV "I Am", and if he was not claiming to be God in John 8:58/10:30-33

Reply: The expression "I am" is indeed used by God, as it is also used of those who are not God. [Even in the NWT, looking up phrases like "I am Jehovah" will bring back a positive result]
A few verses after Jesus' statement in John 8:58, a blind beggar also uses the words I AM/EGW EIMI. Does this make him God?
Let me ask you a question. In Exodus 3:12 we have the same Hebrew words that we have in verse 14. But in verse 12, in most of the Bibles I own, it is translated "I will be." Yet, 2 verses later, it is translated "I AM. Why was it changed to I AM? It seems the NWT (and Moffatt etc) are the only ones consistent here.

Question: What misunderstanding did they have about what it was Jesus said that led them to claim that he was making himself out to be God?

Reply: In John 8, they never understood Jesus as claiming to be God. In John 10:30-33, Jesus quoted Psalm 82 where even Judges are called gods. Like Ryrie says of John 10:34, "Christ's point is that if the O.T. uses the word "God" (Elohim) of men who were representative of God, then the Jews should not oppose Him for calling Himself the Son of God." If Jesus were really "Equal to God" as the Jews have wrongly claimed by making God his Father, then here would have been a great opportunity to explain the Trinity to an unbelieving nation. But what does he do? He answers, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing. No explanation whatsoever of a Triune Deity. Amazing!

Question: Also, why did the soldiers fall to the ground in John 18:5-6?

Reply: "As Jesus said to them, 'I am he,' they retreated and fell to the ground." NAB
Maybe they tripped over each other, the Bible does not explain, but it was probably for the reason mentioned in the NIV Study Bible, "They came to arrest a peasant, but they were met in the dim light by a majestic person."
Jesus uses EGW EIMI 5 times in John 8, yet no one ever lost their footing. Does this mean that we should read into this that Jesus was claiming to be God the Son, the second person of a triune deity? Don't be silly.
We should be thankful that Jesus was not the Almighty, as then they would have died (Ex 33:20). Even when Moses was approached in Exodus 3, it was actually an angel doing all the talking (see verse 2 and Acts 7:30). 

Tuesday, January 2, 2018

On the Words "ONOMA" and "Savoir" and "Greater" in the Bible


Question: In Mt 1:23, who is Matthew referring to here that has been given the name which means "With Us Is God"?

Reply: Simply naming someone Imanuel does not make him God anymore than naming someone Jehu (meaning "Jehovah is He") makes someone Jehovah.

Question: The Bible says that ONLY God is our savior (Hos 13:4, Isa 43:11,45:21, etc.). How can it be then, that the Bible repeatedly says that Jesus Christ is our savior (Lk 2:11, Phil 3:20. Tit 2:13, 3:6, 2Pet 1:1, 2:20, 3:18, etc.)?

Reply: For the same reason Jehovah raised up saviours in the past:
"And when the Israelites cried out to the LORD, he raised for them a savior, Othniel, son of  Caleb's younger brother, Kenaz." Judges 3:9, 15 NAB
"...he raised for them a savior, the Benjaminite Ehud" Judges 3:15
"Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their adversaries, who distressed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours who saved them out of the hand of their adversaries." Neh 9:27
 Why, the very name "Jesus" points to God as the source of salvation. It means "Jehovah Is Salvation" and thus honors the Father as the Saviour to whom even the Son looked.
The Bible as a whole thus makes it clear that there is but one Saviour, Jehovah God. All others who have rightly been called saviours, including Jesus Christ, are not rival saviours. Rather, they were willing to be used by Jehovah God in this capacity. Hence, those desiring to gain divine approval must acknowledge that salvation proceeds from the Father through his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
"This is good and pleasing to God our Saviour; who will everyone to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, there is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human." 1Tim 2:3-5 NAB

Question: If Christ was created by God and was the wisdom of God (Prov 8:1-4, 12, 22-31), then before Jesus would have been created, God would have had to have been without wisdom. How is it possible that God could have ever been without wisdom?

Reply: Actually, it has been primarily Catholics like the questioner here that have touted Jesus as Wisdom. I can just as easily turn this around and ask, why, if God always had wisdom, does the Catholic Bible say that Yahweh created wisdom (NJB) at the above scriptures. Obviously, it is a different wisdom, a personified one, because in Prov 8...Wisdom speaks...and talks of its enjoyment with Yahweh its creator.

Statement: Matt 28:19 says that we are to baptise in the name (onoma is the singular form of name in the Greek) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Reply: Using a singular form of NAME does not necessarily denote singularity.
Genesis 5:2 "Male and female created he them: and blessed them, and called their NAME Adam, in the day when they were created."
Here two distinct and separate individuals are called by one NAME.
Genesis 48:6 "And thy issue, that thou begettest after them, shall be thine; they shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance." All the brothers had
different names although the text represents that by the singular, "name".
It is interesting that the NIV and NEB distributes the term by translating it "names".
Genesis 48:16: "The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mulititude in the midst of the earth." Did Abraham and Isaac have the same name? Clearly, the singular term here "name" is used in a distributive sense.
Mark 5:9: "Then Jesus asked him, ‘What is your name?’ ‘My name is Legion,’ he replied, ‘For we are many.’" In this case one name was given to a plural number of distinct demons.

The Bible clearly distinguishes between the name of the Father and the name of the Son.
Proverbs 30:4 (NIV):" Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is HIS NAME, AND THE NAME OF HIS SON? Tell me if you know!"
Hebrews 1:4 (New Jerusalem): "So he is now as far above the angels as the title which he has inherited is higher than THEIR OWN NAME."
Revelation 14:1 (NIV): "Then I looked, and theme before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had HIS NAME AND HIS FATHER’S NAME written on their foreheads." It is quite obvious that the Father has one name and that the Son has another.
To look for anything else in Matt 28:19 also ignores the "authority" that is placed within the lexical range of ONOMA itself.

Statement: Jesus says, "...the Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) This refers to the Father having a greater position when Christ was on earth. He did not say that the Father is better than Him because they are equal in essence.

Reply: But the text does not say that this only refers to Christ when he was on earth. This is a 4th century interpretation read back into this verse. Jesus showed us how to use this same Greek word right in the next chapter, "Remember the word that I said unto you, A servant is not greater than his lord." A relationship between servant and his lord is one of rank, authority and superiority.

Is this the same for Jn 14:28? In the Grimm-Thayer Lexicon, it says of John 14:28 that MEIZON "is used of those who surpass others-either in nature and power, as God"p. 395
The same word is used at John 1:50. "Jesus said...thou shalt see greater things than these."
Then Jesus continues, "And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man." Is heaven not BETTER than anything we have yet seen?

It is unfortunate that many have to change the common meanings of words to buttress an errant theology.

Monday, January 1, 2018

More on the New World Translation Bible and Luke 23:43


Originally posted at http://www.webshowplace.com/question/65quest.html

Question: Jesus uses the phrase "Truly I say to you,..." over 50 times in the Bible. In the NWT, the comma is placed after the word "you" every time except in Lk 23:43, where the comma is placed after the word "today". Why is the comma placed after "today" instead of after "you" in this verse? If the translation of this phrase in Lk 23:43 was consistent with the translation of this phrase in all the other verses in which it appears (see concordance), and the comma was placed after the word "you", how would it read?

Reply: The above is neither accurate nor fair. The original languages did not have commas, so it is left up to the translator to determine where to put the comma. In the book How To Enjoy The Bible by E. W. Bullinger, it states, "The word 'verily'[truly] points us to the solemnity of the occasion, and to the importance of what is about to be said. The solemn circumstance under which the words were uttered marked the wonderful faith of the dying malefactor; and the Lord referred to this by connecting the word 'to-day' with 'I say.' 'Verily, I say unto to thee this day.' This day, when all seems lost, and there is no hope; this day, when instead of reigning I am about to die. This day, I say to thee, 'Thou shalt be with me in paradise.'
'I say unto thee this day' was the common Hebrew idiom for emphasizing the occasion of making a solemn statement(see Deut. iv. 26, 39, 40; v. 1; vi. 6; vii.11; viii. 1; 11, 19; ix. 3; x. 13; xi. 2, 8, 13, 26, 27, 28, 32; xiii. 18; xv. 5; xix. 9; xxvi. 3, 16, 18; xxvii. 1, 4, 10; xxviii. 1, 13, 14, 15;  xxix. 12; xxx. 2, 8, 11, 15, 16, 18, 19; xxxii. 46). p. 48  5th ed. 1921

 See also Syriac versions of the Bible, along with Rotherham, Concordant Literal NT and The Riverside New Testament.

Greg Stafford, in his book "Jehovah's Witnesses Defended. Elihu Books," makes an excellent point with regards to the "precise wording of the text." He says on page 552 that "Luke 23:43 is the only instance apart from Luke 23:34 where a verb of speech is used with semeron and where hoti does not separate it from that verb."

Below is the Vatican Manuscript 1209 (one of the oldest surviving mss) and they have placed the comma similarly to the NWT.
Other sources:

Tines men houtos anaginoskousin* _Amen lego soi semeron*_ kai hypostizousin* eita epipherousin, hotiet' emou ese e to paradeiso._("Some indeed read this way: 'Truly I tell you today,' and put a comma; then they add: 'You will be with me in Paradise.'"--Hesychius of Jerusalem, an ecclessiastical writer who died about 434 C.E. Greek text found in Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 93, columns 432, 1433.

Alloi de ekbiazontai to rhema, stizontes eis to <<Semeron,>> hin' e to legomenon toiouton* <<Amen ego soi semeron*>> eita to, <<met' emou ese en to paradeiso,>> epipherontes. ("But others press upon the saying, putting a punctuation mark after 'today,' so that it would be said this way: 'Truly I tell you today'; and then they add the expression: 'You will be with me in Paradise.'")--Theophylact, an ecclessistical writer who died about 1112 C.E. Edition: Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 123, column 1104.

Alloi -- to rheton ekbiazontai* legousin gar dein hypostizontas (254: hypostizantas) anaginoskein* amen lego soi semeron*>> eith' houtos epipherein to* met' emou ese etc. ("Others press upon what is spoken; for they say it must read by putting a comma thus: 'Truly I tell you today,' and then adding the expression this way: 'You will be with me' etc.")--Scholia 237, 239, 254. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869, under Luke 23:43.

Kai eutys eipen moi hoti amen amen semeron lego soi, met' emou ese en to parad[eiso]. ("And immediately he said to me: 'Most truly today I tell you, You will be with me in Paradise.'")--Descent into Hades, an apocryphal writing of the fourth century C.E. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig,869, under Luke 23:43.

Ho de eipen auto* semeron lego soi aletheian hina se ekho eis ton parad[eison] met' emou. ("And he said to him: 'Today I tell you the truth, that I should have you in Paradise with me.'")--Gospel of Nicodemus (=Acts of Pilate)b287, an apocryphal writing of the fourth or fifth century C.E. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869, under Luke 23:43.

Therefore, at least from the fourth century C.E. until well into the twelfth century C.E. there were readers who understood the text at Luke 23:43 as "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise." On that very day, when Jesus died, he was in Sheol or Hades, and not in Paradise. (Psalms 16:8-11; Acts 2:22-32) He was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as "the firstfruits" of the resurrection. (Acts 10:40; 1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18) Thus, the word "today" at Luke 23:43 does not give the time of the evildoer's being with Jesus in Paradise.

Or as the great commentarian Adam Clarke puts it:

To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.] Marcion and the Manichees are reported to have left this verse out of their copies of this evangelist. This saying of our Lord is justly considered as a strong proof of the immateriality of the soul; and it is no wonder that those who have embraced the contrary opinion should endeavour to explain away this meaning. In order to do this, a comma is placed after shmeron, to-day, and then our Lord is supposed to have meant, "Thou shalt be with me after the resurrection I tell thee this, TO-DAY." I am sorry to find men-of great learning and abilities attempting to support this most feeble and worthless criticism. Such support a good cause cannot need; and, in my opinion, even a bad cause must be discredited by it.